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always tinkerin to try to squeeze better sound outta abletown. i heard a rumor that it's better keep your master and channel faders lower in live and turn up your soundcard and mixer levels. more headroom in live is better? my master in live stays in the red a lot of the time and i'm always wondering if i should back it off. I have peeked over some pretty hefty shoulders though and seen the master in the red. any other thoughts on gain structure would be much obliged.
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Re: max headroom/gain structure
Sun, May 18, 2008 - 9:08 PMi think there was another thread on this, but general rule is that it's good to keep the level from breaking unity too much. if you peak into the red from time to time it isn't too bad because ableton's dithering is pretty kick ass. staying in the red isn't so yummy though.
i always try and mix my levels down until I hold at just below unity (0db) while doing a final mix before heading to a "mastering" stage. same goes for performing - I try to hold it as close to 0db without blowing into the red constantly.
it also depends on your gain structure post-laptop. if you're blowing the red in ableton and start blowing red in the DJ mixer/house mixer you're going to start noticing distortion and clipping pretty quickly. -
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Re: max headroom/gain structure
Sun, May 18, 2008 - 9:53 PMYeah, what he said.....For what it's worth you can also use the Wonderful compressors/Racks on individual tracks and on the Master buss in a "limiter" capacity and get the sound you are looking for without going into the red. The occasional bump into red is ok but, you don't wanna live there.
www.myspace.com/mortal_engines -
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Re: max headroom/gain structure
Mon, May 19, 2008 - 8:36 PMOne correction to your post Luke: you should keep your Master gain at zero...all the time, period. Never, ever, ever turn it down. When you do that, you are forcing it to degrade the signal by dividing the overall math of each individual track. I learned this the hard way when I mastered some tracks for my CD. All the tracks that I mixed lower (with each track's fader down low...but the Master at zero db) sounded far better...more headroom, etc. The mastering engineer was able to get much more done with them. -
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Re: max headroom/gain structure
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 12:46 PMMy experience with Live is that there is a lot of headroom above 0. It has to get up pretty high to clip. Is this intentional in Live? I recall other DAWs clipping a lot more when going above unity. Any ideas? It's make sense since it's set up for DJs. -
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Re: max headroom/gain structure
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 1:42 PMsAro: I wouldn't confuse 'headroom' with 'clipping.' It is definitely true that you can pump Live into the red with much more ease than other DAWs which immediately clip.
But we're talking about headroom...the elusive 'spaciousness' of a mix that keeps the hot stuff hot and the cold stuff cold...like a McDLT. Here's the way to test it: run a full 24 tracks or so in Live and let it redline a little or a lot. Then (keeping the Master gain at zero...always), turn down all 24 tracks to keep the Master output well below unity and in the green. Turn up your studio monitors to get the volume up where you want it. This scenario will immediately sound more spacious, cleaner, even louder. The lesson is that even a wee bit of 'red' will cause signal degradation...and it multiplies exponentially with the number of tracks involved. -
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Re: max headroom/gain structure
Tue, May 20, 2008 - 5:12 PMOkay, that makes sense. Thanks for 'splaining.
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Re: max headroom/gain structure
Sun, May 25, 2008 - 12:42 AMi just started using live, so sorry if this appears like a simple and often asked question, but, any recommendations for "mastering" right in live to get everything nice and hot?
i've found the hard way on my own what the rest of you seem to already know about keep things around or a little below zero, but the overall output from ableton live is 3ish db quieter than my other programs (logic, final cut, traktor) which creates an issue when matching gain quickly on the fly in live dj situations. Is there a way to "gain up" without the distortion and preferably without too much additional "color" ?
I'm using live to do simple audio/video edits, and to use third party mastering like logic will create two extra steps because i would then have to re-sync the "mastered" audio back to the video in final cut. so, i would really prefer to do it all in abelton if possible.
thanks,
-cb -
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Re: max headroom/gain structure
Sun, May 25, 2008 - 1:46 PMAgain you can take advantage of Live's compressors and Rack configurations....they can either be transparent or add some "dirt" to your overall signal try putting the "analog warmth" plug on the Master Output (it raises your gain and there is a compressor to limit the output keeping out of the red) and if it gets a little too fuzzy just lower the gain of the saturator. There are several racks (or even just Compressor 2) which will do alot to help things sit nicely in the mix. That's how I find myself working quite a bit .
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Re: max headroom/gain structure
Wed, June 4, 2008 - 1:57 PMIn addition to what Don said about having bus compressors and limiters. You can also get a really hot sound by keeping the track levels high and loud and then drop a utility plugin on Lives master channel and Turn it's Gain Knob down to give yourself some headroom pre master fader. -
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Re: max headroom/gain structure
Fri, June 6, 2008 - 12:52 AMI agree with Carl about keeping the master fader locked at zero; also recommend getting your "loudness" as much as possible before the master via comp/saturators on individual tracks. The less you have to do at the master stage, the better the results will be. For live performance I just put Saturator on the master track ("Analog/Soft Clip"); for studio tracks I use Roger Nichol's "Finis".. Both of these work well for me.
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