can someone explain how best to use sidechain compression for drums and bass using live?
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Portland
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Sun, April 27, 2008 - 9:58 PMI just learned about how this works in a recent issue of Computer Music produced mag on Ableton. A technique called ducking-like when a DJ on the radio talks and the music immediately drops back-that's a side chaining. Every time a signal passes the threshold it cuts the volume back on the other signal. So think of using that for the kick and the bass line. Every time the kick hits the bass lowers so the sound stays fat instead of muddy.
There's another technique called de-essing which allow you to add frequencies via side chaining compression to fatten up parts of a signal.
It seems like you'd just use a send, right? The threshold of compression allow you to control what happens that's the cool thing about side chaining.
Hope that helps!
J -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 2:22 AMI'll show you when you get back, Luke. :-)
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 7:44 AMUsing a send is called parallel compression (aka New York compression). I recorded a video on how to do parallel compression here:
www.mutantaudio.net/tutorial...l_ma.html
With side chain compression, your using one audio signal to trigger the compressor, but applying that compression to a second audio signal, such as using the kick drum audio to cause compression on the bass synth. To do it you have to have a compressor which supports side chaining. The new compressor in Live 7 supports side chaining. Here's a video tutorial on how to do it with a free side chain compressor and Live 6 or prior.
www.abletonguru.com/tutorial...pression/ -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 10:16 AMNice tutorial, Craig.
As far as sidechaining goes w/ live 6 or 7. The way it has best been recommended to me for use is as follows:
Example using sidechained compression on bass drums and bass synth channels.
You're not worried about other drums. Your bass kicks and low freq drum sounds should be on a separate track from your snares and cymbals as you do not want you snares (for instance) to activate the compression on the bass line (they are not in similar frequencies and do not conflict to create muddiness in your sound) - independent or discreet tracks are always highly recommended.
On the bass drum sounds channel (ch 1), add a compressor. Open up the sidechaining option on the compressor. Your Bass synth (ch 2) needs to be assigned to this side chain. So, within the compressor, with the sidechain field expanded, simply assign ch 2 as the track to be affected by the sidechained compression.
It's not easy to really tell how affective this is at moderate volumes unless the conflict was causing the sound to clip or flatten out like it hit a wall (that muddy splat of a sound...ewwe).
That's how I understand and use it at least. Sidechained Compression (aka ducking) and Sidechained EQ are your friends. Live took quite a while to catch the boat on this, but their interface makes it as simple as it could be (if you are on version 6 or better). -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 4:13 PMAre those directions are for the new compressor in L7? Unless I'm missing something, Compressor II doesn't have a place to assign the signal to be affected... -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Mon, April 28, 2008 - 5:51 PMclick the arrow all the way to the left-it reveals a side menu... -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 8:40 PMsweet fellas. maybe i can stop playing gigs for 2 seconds and learn some of this stuff. -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 11:09 PMso it seems you can use the compression both ways depending on which sound you want to dictate and which you want to receive? i'm trying it with audio drum tracks and bass lines and not getting the best results. it's probably more effective with midi where the sounds can be isolated. however the parallel compression works nice craig. if i'm not mistaken it's essentially duplicating a drum track and putting compression on one.? nother question, is resampling the best way to bounce these drums to a single track?
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 11:10 PMAs far as I know it was added for Live 6. I recall reading a rag that listed sidechaining as a great added feature for Live 6 and it's mainly what prompted me to upgrade. They are definitely applicable to Live 7, but I'm pretty sure they are also for Live 6. Anyone confirm that? -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, April 29, 2008 - 11:20 PMRe" resampling and bouncing drums to a single track. I'd really recommend you don't. Especially for mastering, independent (or discreet) tracks are most desireable. The more you can isolate a sound, the better you can work with it and reshape it. Think of it like this. If you bounce all of your drum sounds to a single track and you later decide that the snare is too sharp or the bass kick is too loose, or the cymbals just suck, you cannot go back in and fix it. You have to start back at square one. If you want to apply an effect to the entire kit and this is why you are bouncing down, you should opt for putting the effect on a send channel and routing each drum channel to that send.
Bouncing down tracks is an out of date trick for old two, four and eight track recordings. I cannot think of a DAW now that offers less than 16. This makes bouncing down tracks fairly archaic in theory. George Martin was the master of bouncing down tracks, but that's because he had to record albums like the Beatles' "Sgt. Pepper's..." on four audio channels. We are fortunate enough to work in a world of luxury in this regard..
I hope that answers your question. Of course, If I am mistaken, I hope someone will chime in to explain it better. I still feel like a newb in DAW land. -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 12:04 AMmy application for this stuff is for live sets where i have all my parts broke down to separate channels, drums, bass, synths, percussion, etc. i usually mix 6 to 10 channels live. therefore i have to bounce the drums down to one part. i do run into issues with this cuz it's cumbersome to preserve all my midi and effects situations for later if i want to make changes. it's raw and messy but i just don't get much out of mixing 2 or 3 produced tracks at a time. -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 12:29 AMSpeaking of sidechaining Just made these comp plugins that you might find useful.
www.rhythminmind.net/presetb...for-all/ -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 7:57 AMI see what you mean, Luke. What I would recommend for you is to render these drum sections to an audio track or bounce them to one track while still preserving the independent channels for future tweaking. -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 8:34 AM>>click the arrow all the way to the left-it reveals a side menu...<<
Are you guys referring to this compressor?
www.ableton.com/pages/live..._compressor -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 8:55 AMYa know? I thought sidechaining was added in 6, but I'm not positive now. That is definitely the current compressor in the link and what I use now. I actually upgraded to 6 just before 7 was released and got the free upgrade, so I was only on 6 for about two weeks. I'm not recalling what it looked like TBH. -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 8:58 AMYeah, the Comp II in L6 does "EQ sidechaining" which after reading the manual on it seems limited and not very useful.
I thought I was losing my mind for a bit there not being able to find that menu...
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Wed, April 30, 2008 - 11:45 PMAnd yes, Luke...'Resampling' is a winner...it routes everything through the Master Bus...so you can add some last minute EQ, Mastering, etc on that chain if needed.
Or you can do it 'Old School' and lay out your drum tracks in the Arrange page, bracket the length you want, and Render. This will give you a tightly cropped loop in quicker than real time. But I've seen no signal loss whatsoever with Resampling.
And like the other dude said, you keep the original track for later tweaking. I have two versions of every song...one for live and one for studio. -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 9:48 AM"On the bass drum sounds channel (ch 1), add a compressor. Open up the sidechaining option on the compressor. Your Bass synth (ch 2) needs to be assigned to this side chain. So, within the compressor, with the sidechain field expanded, simply assign ch 2 as the track to be affected by the sidechained compression"
Actually it's the inverse of what you said here in this statement Saro. In 7 you put the compressor on the BASS (that's actually what you want ducked instead of the kick being ducked.)
Here's a pic of what it looks like set up...
people.tribe.net/mubali/ph...cbfb3356a6 -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:03 AMThat's how it's typically done, but it's really an aesthetic choice, isn't it? ;) -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:18 AMif you're not planning on ducking the bass sure you can set it up differently. I wouldn't say it's an aesthetic choice, but more of if you are intending on ducking your bass for your kick ducking anything to anything, you have to set up the what you want compressed to have the compressor on it and have it read from what you want to be the ducking signal. -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:20 AMnice one eRic... I think I'll have to check out your plugs... :)
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:52 AMYes. I know how it works.
My point was to be creative, not a slave to a process. -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:58 AMindeed, but creativity is all for naught if it doesn't sound good...
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bouncing...
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 6:38 PM...there's another option that hasn't been mentioned so far (and i'm a little surprised): grouping.
for live it may not work as well as bouncing, but for production if you want to apply the same effect to a drum "set" (say maybe reverb or whatever) you can send different channels output to a separate channel and apply the effects to that channel (i have done this for my 100hz bass roll-off.) it's a trick i learned from cubase (which was emulating real-world mixers.)
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:04 AMMy live multi comp-1 SC tutorial. -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 10:05 AM -
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Re: Sidechain Compression?
Tue, May 6, 2008 - 11:08 AMHmm, I guess it was explained to me backward. Thanks for clarifying.
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how about Sidechain EQ'ed Compression?
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 6:40 PMi'd heard that you could use eq & sidechain compression to do things like remove a kick from a bass/drum track. i've got a great sample of this bassline, but there's an annoying kick drum that i don't want...
